In recent months, I came across some comments in SIM Confessions that is so negative about the future career prospects of distance learning degree holders like SIM-UOL and the complaints about discrimination against distance learning. It is annoying to be frank that they are creating negative impact on others while you have been volunteering your time to help improve things for them and create a better image of the community.
Here are some common complaints:
- Pay lower than Diploma holders
- Could not get pay equivalent to local graduates
- Could not get the expected salary hence decided to keep on looking
In my mind is like "hello... wake up your idea". To address those complaints, here are my arguments on those complaints in hope that mentality will change:
1) Pay Lower than Diploma Holders
Which diploma holders are you comparing with? They read news articles that claim average diploma holders post-NS earns like $2.5k and argued what is the point of studying a degree?
Hello... do you know what does 'average' in statistics mean? It is the 'mean' which is affected by outliers. You should look at median, the 50th percentile which is around $2,250!
And have you ever wondered why would any employer bother to pay $250 extra to someone just because they have done NS? Employers are not doing charities! It could be that they give NS recognition pay because they are Government-linked or their NS experience is relevant to their job. And you are using a private company that does not have NS recognition pay and a job that has nothing to do with your NS role and compare with that? Is it even a fair and reasonable comparison?
If you can't even reason or understand statistics, why should employers pay you high when you do not have the abilities to analyse and understand things to make yourself worth that much?
2) Could Not Get Pay Equivalent to Local Graduates
Earning less than local graduates generally is expected. Local uni graduates are consistent performers. If you are an employer, be objective and ask yourself this: would you place your trust more on someone who is consistent or one that is not? And so your answer why local graduates earn more.
Sure there are discrimination (unjustified) against distance learning degree holders but do you rather complain and wait for good jobs to drop from the sky (which won't) or buck up and show the world that you can do it too? Some sacrifice at the start (like earning lesser but gaining relevant work experience for your career like I did as explained here) is nothing when you have the eagerness and passion to strive, and with the use of strategy on your career path, you still can excel better than those hares that look down on the tortoises in the long run (I'm a tortoise myself but I am back on track now and faster than some hares)! Listening to the story of the hare and tortoise countless times in childhood seems like it means nothing to them.
3) Could Not Get the Expected Salary Hence Decided to Keep on Looking
Ya... as if jobs will drop from the sky and bow to you solely because you have a degree. If you can't match the requirements, who cares you have a degree? Plenty of degree holders out there who are eager and show that they are contributors and not with entitlement mentality. Keep on dreaming and the longer you are jobless, the less bargaining power you have over salary while all your knowledge just depletes as you do not use them and your worth just drop as time goes. You know, I went to some of the local universities for their career fairs as an employer (I'm in HR role) and there are even students so willing to take a gap year just to get internship! If you are not hungry enough, just keep on waiting...
Employers usually will mark down your salary when the gap between your last job and current applied job is too big. If after 2 months no invitation to interview yet, you have to do something already. Change your CV format base on what the employer really wants (look at here for ideas and market yourself well as mentioned here) or even lower expected salary!
Why I'm a Little Upset
I do not see people being eager to network (there are some minorities that are and I did see some who turned up at University of London's 7th Apr 2016 career networking session at Singapore which is delightful and I believe these are those that will excel in their career). Some thinking of the registration fee for lifetime member at the Alumni Association as high. For fresh graduates, I can understand that. But for those already working for quite some time, $50 is really nothing. They just did not see the value of networking that I have mentioned here. You ask some of them to consider joining alumni, some argue it is elitist group that they feel out of place but then they complain about discrimination and the inability to get good jobs and excel.
I have shared with two of my juniors today after the career networking session of my intention to become a lecturer not at poly but at private uni because I do not see it as mere teaching but as someone that's transforming the life of another, giving them hope and when you see them successful, it is a great feeling! I wanted to be in the corporate world, gain relevant work experience and be up there first before lecturing so that I can show myself as a role model of 'been there, done that'. Many people who entered private uni in Singapore will feel discouraged because they could not enter local uni, believing they are 2nd class citizens. That was the case for me too in the past but I bucked up and worked my way back on track! I wanted to show people that you as a private uni graduate can excel too! All you need is just to buck up and work on it!
However, many are saying "none of my friends got good jobs, got into Big 4 accounting firms or get good pay". But surprisingly, my surrounding friends do get good prospect. One went to LSE got distinction and went Chicago Booth for her PhD. One went Oxford for his Masters and working in London now. One went LSE and in EY now (got EY even before LSE with his 1st class). One went LSE and in IDA getting very good pay. I, myself got into a graduate programme in a Forbes Global 2000 company. How come? You see, you are applying convenience sampling that is not representative of the true nature of the population. Sure, people who excel are rare and not common. But when you mix around with the right group (e.g. the Alumni who usually are filled with eager people who has a goal and vision), you will just hear more success stories, be motivated and even gain ideas from those who are successful on how to excel. You are equipped with the knowledge that LSE students get at London campus itself and you do not use the critical thinking ability to think for yourself?
Hello... if you do not fight for opportunities, will jobs drop from the sky?
Think again.
do you agree that most top distance learning grads eventually take a MSc at a better uni? Given your examples of friends you chose to mention, it validates the stigma attached to a distance learning degree.
ReplyDeleteHi Joel,
ReplyDeleteI do not agree. In my LSE batch from SIM-UOL in 2013, there were 8 of us out of 116 1st class honours overall. I and another in the 8 are 2nd Upper, not 1st! If I recall, it was less than 20 that took Masters. 20 out of 116 is not 'most'.
As I already agreed in the article of discrimination against distance learning degrees, I highlighted even more so on the importance of right attitude. Recently I met someone who graduated from UoLIP decades ago and now a General Manager of a very renowned training provider. He held senior positions in big companies too. I also know of another former CEO also from UoLIP who also held senior positions in big companies too. I also know another with 3rd class honours that got into Senior Marketing positions eventually. All did so without Masters from prestigious universities. They did so with the right mentality.
If you say 'most', most of my classmates at LSE are from world ranking Universities. Distance learning students are minorities. In my class of 40, only 2 from distance learning. Many are from prestigious universities. Of Singaporeans, mostly from NUS. So the argument of 'most' top distance learning grads will take Masters from better uni is invalid as even more NUS grads do! Using my friends as example of stigma is invalid too. I am likely closer to friends that went LSE or those whom we share our joys of successes, keeping in touch. For others, there is lesser chance for me to know their status to even quote them. This is convenience sampling. How can you use it for generalisation then?
Thanks for the insightful reply.
ReplyDeleteThe people you mentioned that eventually "make it" sounds like they entered industries with lower barrier to entry, and eventually worked their way up.
Take front office jobs in IB for example, where even for local uni grads, only a very small percentage of them manage to get in. In such a situation, do you agree the best strategy for a UOL grad to be on a level playing field is to re-brand oneself with further education?
Is it still possible to work your way up with a good attitude specialised roles (e.g. sales & trading), where the skills from start from the bottom (e.g back office) are not exactly transferable?
I am curious about the path for a UOL grad to reach the highest highest ranks of the white collar jobs. Starting from the bottom v.s. further education?
Hi Joel,
DeleteRecently I met someone from SIM-UoL who is working at Schroders as a Graduate Trainee dealing with IB. He didn't go LSE and used purely SIM-UoL.
I wouldn't say 're-brand' but rather improving one's own branding. If you use UoL degree alone without anything else and compare NUS degree alone without anything else and everything being equal, of course employers will pick NUS graduate for sure. But if you have a UoL graduate who is very passionate about IB and knows a lot about it compare with a 3rd class NUS graduate who knows nothing much about it and not very passionate, who will you pick? If I'm the employer, I'll pick the UoL graduate because mere paper qualification won't bring me profit but its the passionate and knowledge that drives performance that will.
Did he need to 're-brand' himself to be on a level playing field? Not at all. Employers look at the whole package and job seekers need to strategise themselves too and not assuming a mere degree is sufficient.
Of course if you go LSE, you will increase your attractiveness not because of the mere LSE degree but it is a proof of your capabilities to learn as LSE is not easy to get in to begin with. LSE also brings with it a good network. It is the same that employers will favour those with better grades (provided its a relevant knowledge) solely because they are better candidates if all things else are the same. Further education is just one of the many routes to bring you to a level playing field but it is not the only one like how the guy I met did.
I also have a SIM-UoL friend who is a Derivatives Client Representative at Morgan Stanley. He didn't go LSE at all. He graduated with 2nd Upper honours at SIM-UoL. Back then, he worked and studied part-time. Thereafter he went to do a 3-month contract at ING as Credit Admin Executive before going into Morgan Stanley and has been there for 3 years already. How did he do it? I'm not sure but definitely if you strategise well, it is possible. They are not the more senior people whom I met which you may think they entered industries with lower barrier to entry. Unemployment rate in the past may even be higher than now so the barrier to entry may not be necessary lower than today. It is just that many graduates today are eyeing very narrow range of jobs like IB that seems like it is a much higher barrier to entry.
Back office to IB may be challenging but you could do IB in small firms first then go into bigger ones later. That might be easier. If not, at least do the closest job that you could gain as much transferable skills as possible. Surely IB is not just about investment. It has to do with customer service, the ability to analyze and many other skills that could be gained from other jobs. It may not mean you do that job and the next job sure can get into IB. It may mean you need to jump from a not-so-similiar job to a more-similar job to a very-similar job before you can get into IB. If IB is your passion, then plan your career path but then think why you want IB in the first place.
If you want to maximise profit is that effort still worth it? If it is too costly to get an IB job, then perhaps doing an alternative job could be better for you. I think the most important thing is being flexible. If finance industry collapse and you die die want IB, it is not very wise.
IB can be very prestigious no doubts but when competition is high, it may be harder to climb too. When competition is low, you could climb very fast and you could be in a senior position while another still die die want IB may still be in middle level position in IB.
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DeleteSorry for the long message... continuing...
DeleteIf you want to climb to the top, further education is also not guaranteed. I'm in the graduate programme of my current company. I have LSE Masters but you know who are my batch mates? 1 company scholar with UCL undergraduate and Cambridge Masters, 1 Nanyang Business School dean list, 1 NTU Sociology and from RJC and another from University of Sydney double major which is also quite a good uni. In my current posting, you throw a rock and easily you will hit someone from NUS or NTU and many of them from very prestigious JCs like Hwa Chong or VJC. And easily 1/4 also have Masters. Most of them aren't even Managers because of very limited slots for promotion. So further education alone definitely will help you to reach? No.
Even with further education, you start from the bottom. Don't think because you have a mere masters the employer will beg you or bow to you. A junior asked me before I went LSE about how much I expect for my starting pay when I return. I said $3k plus range and he was shocking and said I should ask for $5k! I lectured him saying that is a Managerial pay range already or an experienced hire's pay. There are very unrealistic expectations among the youngsters who have not stepped into the industry and dreaming the sky.
The fastest way to climb is simply to understand how the industry works and play the game, being realistic. It is not about being UoL or not. Surely UoL will be on disadvantage when you compare with NUS or NTU by the degree alone and assuming same honours grade but like I said, employers look at the whole package.
And don't forget, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Michael Dell, owners of Computer Giants all did not have degree. So is degree the sole route for success? Not at all. But of course it will grant you some knowledge to compete better.
Then again, if you climb to the top so what? Ultimately the next generation will forget about you and you will die. If can climb to the top, good but if can't, it doesn't mean you're a failure. Many NUS & NTU graduates don't climb to the top also. In fact, majority don't because top positions are only so few.
Btw, for those very good jobs if you can find a very lousy poorly graded NUS/NTU graduate with yucky attitude and still win the job over a UoL graduate with the right attitude and strong knowledge and passion, I'll accept your argument. Otherwise, I do not see any logical comparison.
DeleteMost of those NUS/NTU graduates who are on those jobs by attitude, knowledge and passion alone already win over most UoL graduates! In those career fair that I went in NUS/NTU/SMU I can see the attitude is totally different! If our UoL graduates do not buck up and look themselves down and assume a mere degree is all that matters, no employers will change their attitude towards UoL graduates.
I do hope I have convinced you. And for sure, some employers do discriminate distance learning degrees. I know of that but when you have relevant work experience, no one really cares about your degree any more. It does not make any business sense to hire a Harvard fresh graduate over someone who has made billions for a company solely because the latter only has a distance learning degree. If that employer behaves like that, don't join cause they have no business sense and that company won't excel.
Excellent read. Thank you for sharing. I agree that ultimately, it is the attitude and passion of a person that determines his/her success. Based on what I have gathered from trolling countless linkedin profiles, UOL grads who go on to LSE, as a majority, overwhelming do better than UOL grads. That might be because those who go on to LSE are typically more driven. They might or might not have performed as well even without the masters.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that the examples you have provided are outliers who go on to do massively well for themselves without further education. I would still argue that in order to maximize the chances of success, one should consider further education. Of course, like you have mentioned, that is only a part of the bigger picture.
Personally, I want to study study at LSE because I want to delve deeper into finance and be around people that are smarter and more passionate than me. The networking sessions and brand name are a plus.
That is for sure. LSE as a brand already aids one's success and yes, those who go on to LSE are also typically more driven.
DeleteLike I mentioned, LSE is one of the many routes that one can employ to aid in one's success but definitely not the only way. If you can afford to go, it is a good exposure. Not only does that brand will aid you for a good start, the exposure of living overseas is also something valuable to employers that requires someone with cultural sensitivity and has international operations that requires someone with such capacity. It is also an experience that will be costly at a later stage in life (nevertheless, still good to work a year or two first to confirm own interest before pursue a further education which is costly). But I stress that this is not the only route because it is indeed not the only route and I do not wish anyone that could not afford to study at LSE or any good uni overseas to feel disheartened for there is no need to.
Those examples I gave are definitely outliers. I do not suggest that an average UoL graduate will do better than an average NUS graduate as I already said there is discrimination by society and indeed most people who are in UoL at least in Singapore are people who could not get into local uni. Unless they buck up and perform, they will never be better than an average NUS/NTU/SMU graduate. People who do buck up usually ended up with 1st class or 2nd Upper honours. Some may ended with lower overall grades but still become successful eventually as they bucked up later in life. The earlier one bucks up, the faster one can excel.
As for maximising chances of success with further education, I'll say it is only true if it is further education in a good university. If some unknown university, it is just worthless. And further education will no longer maximise the chance of success when too many people use that strategy. The key is learning, not degree. You can learn on the job or learn through a school. The difference is that learning on the job is an applicable knowledge but may lack transferability as it is a company specific skill. And for education, it is research based study that is systematic and can be generalised but you only know the general theory but may not be able to relate to real world and apply to specific context. The best learning approach is to have both and not using either to replace another in my opinion.
And further education is like an investment. If the school fee is now $20 million, do you still say it maximise the chances of success or get you in debt like many American graduates? Do you still consider that as 'success' maximisation? You still have to compare it with the net returns. It can still come to a point that one could be better off by not pursuing further education.
When I was given the offer from LSE, I did not just accept it. I did a calculation on potential net returns based on my pay 3 years ago and the NUS 4-year degree graduate pay 3 years ago as a rough gauge that if I graduate from LSE, I would earn at least that amount. Then I calculated whether it would be a positive investment that I could earn back the amount of that education eventually. I did not assume that with a mere LSE degree success will just come to me without considering the fundamental costs and benefits. I sought advice from various people too. Eventually the benefits outweigh the costs then I decided to proceed. This would not be true for everyone. Like my insurance agent, she is also a UoL graduate and in million dollar round table. If she goes to LSE, she will be worse off as she is already very successful.
My argument is that LSE is not for all and not the only route for success. But LSE or not, having the right attitude is key as a foundation for anything. Without the right attitude and motivation, you won't be driven to do anything to aid your success. Even with LSE degree, you will assume success will just drop from the sky and stop pursuing continuous learning and lose favour of the market with obsolete knowledge and skills.